A Clannad Man Walks into a #TLWiki…

Clannad_Man (~Clannad_M@i.am.THE.ClannadMan) has joined #tlwiki

Repiphany: THE

This is a chat log that was recorded on #TLWiki on irc.rizon.net today. Before he came onto the channel, velocity7 of Baka-Tsuki, a site that had unaffiliated themselves with the Clannad VN project, posted these comments made by him:

I would like to clear up some things. This effort has been taken completely out of context.

Everyone is choosing to make the assumptions but no one has opted to reach out to me. I would love to have a proper conversation to explain the aspects of this issue, if you will listen. If you’re willing to talk, let me know.

Some TLWiki-ers joked about inviting Clannad Man into the channel, so flamingspinach invited him to the channel. Clannad_Man accepted. This is the largely unedited conversation between him and the #TLWiki denizens. I’ve only taken out random bits that didn’t matter in the conversation; that is the only editorial decision I made. Credits to TsunNemesis for being my slave (i.e. taking out the timestamps for every line). And flamingspinach for correcting my intro.

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flamingspinach: hi Clannad_Man

flamingspinach: so what's up with your kickstarter update

Clannad_Man: What do you want to know?

Clannad_Man:about the update

flamingspinach: your latest kickstarter update says, "Consider this: the international Key community is so passionate about their visual novels / anime that it caught the attention of even the President of Key/Visual Art's! That isn't an easy feat."

flamingspinach: but what actually happened was that some dude from this channel tweeted the link to your kickstarter to @vavasyatyou

Clannad_Man: Yes, I'm quite aware

flamingspinach: so why the discrepancy?

flamingspinach: it's clearly not anything to do with the international Key community's passion that caused @vavasyatyou to become aware of your kickstarter.

Clannad_Man: If the Kickstartr had no backers, few would have noticed or cared, correct?

flamingspinach: that's rather disingenuous

Clannad_Man: So you say.

flamingspinach: you specifically say that "it" caught the attention of the president of Key/VA

flamingspinach: but in fact what it caught the attention of was other western eroge players, such as those in this channel

flamingspinach: who then indirectly alerted @vavasyatyou

flamingspinach: yes, I do say so, and with good reason, as detailed above

Moogy: a lot of the money was from like 2 or 3 people too

Shikiller: >Steven Schoenwald (aka the Clannad Man) has been involved with the Key community for years. He was responsible for leading the English Localization Projects for three Key visual novels (Clannad, Little Busters!, and Tomoyo After)

Shikiller: wow what liar

Shikiller: so you lead the Clannad translation?

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: something else I'm wondering is, why didn't you contact VA/Key before putting up the kickstarter?

flamingspinach: @vavasyatyou said he wasn't aware of your project at all.

Clannad_Man: I can only respond to one person at a time.

flamingspinach: but it seems like when you're going to make a documentary about a company and celebrating the company's 15th anniversary, you would usually contact the company first, right?

flamingspinach: especially if you're saying you're a representative of the international Key community, why have you not communicated with Key at all?

flamingspinach: there are plenty of Key fans who have. Doesn't that make them more qualified to speak for the international Key community than you?

Clannad_Man: First, to Shikiller: When the Baka-Tsuki Clannad project was transferred over to Doki Fansubs, I oversaw it for a time. I never claimed to have led the initial iterations of the localization, responsible for spreading much of its popularity

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: are you 整うing a 説明 to my questions now

Clannad_Man: You're using that terminology to describe my role, spinach, not me. I never claimed to be more qualified than anyone else. I merely took the initiative to act on a proposal. Anyone can do that.

flamingspinach: ok, so you don't claim to be a representative of the international Key community, fine

flamingspinach: that still doesn't explain why you didn't contact Key beforehand

Shikiller: So you claim that you were "responsible for leading the English Localization Project" of Clannad, but you actually just oversaw it for a time?

Clannad_Man: For what purpose? Interviews?

flamingspinach: to let them know that you were going to be doing a documentary about them

flamingspinach: seems like standard procedure, surely?

flamingspinach: unless it was a hostile documentary, which obviously doesn't seem to be the case

flamingspinach: or I guess it's not even technically a documentary about key, is it? it's only about "locations that inspired key".

Clannad_Man: First, there is no reason why I would need to contact them about the majority of the locations which were planned for the documentary. Those locations could be visited by anyone.

Link`: Clannad_Man: why are you pretending to be a major player in the Key community and saying you lead translation projects when no one even knows who you are?

flamingspinach: Second...?

Link`: it’s VERY disrespectful to the people who make these things happen

Link`: and put in thousands of hours into their work

Link`: you’re taking credit for it and it’s kind of awful

Link`: you never answered this question before and just dodged it

Clannad_Man: Continuing on, I was not personally respobsible for gathering interviews. They were not going to be included in the first place.

flamingspinach: I didn’t ask anything about interviews

Clannad_Man: Link, I said I would answer one question at a time

flamingspinach: you sure type slowly

herkz: how about actually answering them then

Clannad_Man:Then what reason would I need to contact them outside of as a courtesy?

Holo|i7: May I interject at this moment and say that I in fact DID appoint Clannad_man to oversee VN translations. He’s no longer leading it, but he isn’t lying when he says he did lead it.

herkz: what does leading it entail

herkz: what did he do exactly?

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: ok, point. So could you post to your kickstarter clarifying that you never contacted Key, and someone else initiated the conversation between you and @vavasyatyou?

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: because there is a guy in the comments who is saying he’s supporting you because you took the initiative to contact Key, which is a misunderstanding on his part

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: it seems like you have some responsibility to clear that up, no?

Holo|i7: Overall planning/scheduling/assigning/pushing people to do their jobs of TLing/Editing/QCing/etc

herkz: so no real work, then

Hibari: ^

Link`: taking all the credit fits then

Link`: thanks for confirming

Clannad_Man: To your first statement, because that would be inaccurate. I haven’t had time yet to respond to everyone’s comments. Dealing with so many angry comments is a challenging thing

flamingspinach: what would be inaccurate?

Holo|i7: I’ll go as far as to say that if I had not assigned C_M to that role, we probably still wouldn’t have release Tomoyo After. The previous leader (before C_M) of the VN dept was very inactive, lol.

herkz: what a loss that would’ve been

Holo|i7: You’re right in saying that he didn’t actually do any TLing/editing, but having someone to lead a project is equally essential

flamingspinach: Holo|i7: sounds like “organizer” rather than “leader” to me, but what to call it is up to the individual project I guess

herkz: in my experience having the translator lead it works best

Holo|i7: Without a leader, nothing gets done, that is a sad but true fact.

Moogy: the fact remains that he didn’t have anything to do with the initial clannad and LB projects and doki hasn’t released anything from those games

flamingspinach: also I think it’s necessary to mention that this is a *fan* translation, in case people get the wrong idea that Key actually had anything to do with the translation

Clannad_Man: See, I don’t understand why you’re making me seem like such a great guy just to tear me down. I’ve done what I’ve done. I don’t picture myself as more than a very enthusiastic fan who thought he would help out

herkz: people don’t like what you did because you asked for money

herkz: literally the only reason

Clannad_Man: Moogy, I’m not responsible for the VN department any more. I haven’t been for months

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: what is inaccurate about what I said? You said my statement was inaccurate. What did you mean?

Clannad_Man: No one contacted Baba about the documentary

flamingspinach: yeah they did

flamingspinach: fuji_fruit did

Clannad_Man: thats not what you asked

Clannad_Man: No one from my end did

flamingspinach: which question are you referring to

flamingspinach: yes, I know

flamingspinach: what I’m saying is, you should clarify that on your kickstarter

flamingspinach: because people in the comments of your kickstarter are getting the idea that you contacted Baba personally

flamingspinach: which you did not

flamingspinach: also, you should link to the twitter conversation you had with Baba instead of just vaguely referring to “a conversation”

Holo|i7: So it all comes down to money, in the end. People are pissed because C_M’s getting donations, lol.

Moogy: it’s against kickstarter rules to offer rewards you didn’t make yourself

flamingspinach: there’s that too

Holo|i7: Yeah, those kickstarter rewards are a major issue, I do agree with that

Clannad_Man: I was in error. I’ve admitted that in my write-up

flamingspinach: otherwise kickstarter just turns into an online shop

Clannad_Man: it is being translated

flamingspinach: your “write-up” being the latest kickstarter update that we can currently see?

flamingspinach: or something else?

Clannad_Man: no

Clannad_Man: something else

flamingspinach: ok, it’s the thing you were telling vavasyatyou you’d translate

flamingspinach: but it is already written, and in english?

Clannad_Man: Yes, its written, and being translated

flamingspinach: then can you post it on your kickstarter so that we and your backers can read it?

Clannad_Man: No. I intend to post the English and the Japanese version at the same time

Moogy: also my main problem is this. regardless of semantic arguments about how you might have helmed the projects once they transferred over to doki, your wording is intentionally disingenuous when you state that you were the head of clannad’s project

flamingspinach: why?

Moogy: velocity7 was the head of clannad’s project, not you

Clannad_Man: because I can.

Moogy: doki’s shit doesn’t matter

DxS: So it all comes down to money, in the end. People are pissed because C_M’s getting donations, lol. – kind of, yeah

DxS: though I don’t see the problem with that

Moogy: also lol 20k dollars to go to japan with a camcorder

flamingspinach: what Moogy said

herkz: who doesn’t love a good scamstarter

Clannad_Man: 1-2 professional videographers, an interpreter/guide, and myself

Hibari: can i get 20k usd too

Hibari: i’ll bring you cake

Blue-kun: harder to figure out than Valvrave’s plot

Blue-kun: brb back to Valvrave

Moogy: only if you give me photocopied madoka genga

Hibari: ok, we have a deal

Holo|i7: You know, if the rewards were removed, and people were still willing to donate, there would be no problems at all (in terms of legality)

Clannad_Man: You know, if you were so inclined to make a documentary on that topic, I’m sure people would offer pledges to your effort as well

herkz: some of us are above scamming people

Link`: ^^

Link`: I have a conscience

Link`: and I’m not going to make believe I’m a huge part of a massive fan community to make $20k and a free trip to Japan

Link`: maybe it’s just me

herkz: i mean, $20k might be reasonable if you had experience and could prove it would cost that much

Holo|i7: If you think it’s a scam, don’t back the project?

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: why have you registered clannad.org?

herkz: uh

Clannad_Man: I’m sure you realized that is completely unsubstantiated.

herkz: not backing isn’t enough

herkz: telling other people it’s a scam is kind of important too

Hibari: ^

Clannad_Man: Because it was open

herkz: Clannad_Man: feel free to prove it’ll cost you $20k then

Clannad_Man: Too bad it was not a scam

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: shouldn’t key have control of that domain?

herkz: lying to yourself doesn’t help us

Link`: If you think it’s a scam, don’t back the project? – but it matters because Clannad_Man was offering unlicensed copyrighted materials as rewards

flamingspinach: and doesn’t pointing clannad.org to your kickstarter deceptively suggest that you are more officially related to key than you actually are?

Holo|i7: And if people are still to donate after you spread your opinion around (that it’s a scam), then there won’t be any problems

Holo|i7: I know Link`, I am saying if the rewards are removed. The legality issue is those rewards

Holo|i7: And the only legality issue

Link`: besides Holo|i7, shouldn’t a project like this raise money on its own merits and not on the Madokas and K-Ons?

Link`: it’s very disingenious

herkz: i don’t have any reason to stop until the project dies and isn’t funded

Clannad_Man: I offered them control of a Key-based domain years ago. They never responded.

Holo|i7: I know Link`, I agree those rewards are not a good idea

Holo|i7: herkz: spread your opinion around the internet then, you might be able to sway a few minds

Holo|i7: point is, if C_M can raise the money without any rewards, there are no problems

Link`: it doesn’t really matter if the Kickstarter comes back without illegal rewards because this whole debacle shows that no one involved is competent enough to run a KS campaign, let alone conduct a documentary and manage $20k in funds properly

Link`: that’s my whole point

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: your behavior is kind of suspicious — why cancel the kickstarter as soon as Baba found out about it?

Holo|i7: C_M already managed to raise half the amount… That in itself is quite an achievement (even though the rewards are dubious, agreed)

herkz: he can only raise money because the kickstarter page contains lies about himself

DxS: so wait

DxS: this magical trip to japan will cost 40k?

Shikiller: 20k

flamingspinach: Holo|i7: two people were responsible for half of that

Clannad_Man: Less than 20k. Kickstarter and Amazon payments costs feeds. So do rewards

Clannad_Man: That’s budgeting

Holo|i7: quite generous people, i know lol

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: why did you cancel the kickstarter only after baba found out about it?

Holo|i7: He explained that in his tweet

Clannad_Man: ^

Holo|i7: as an act of good faith, until he has clarified everything.

flamingspinach: how is canceling a kickstarter an “act of good faith”?

Link`: what’s there to clarify?

flamingspinach: that doesn’t make any sense

Holo|i7: I thought he paused it

flamingspinach: the kickstarter page says “canceled”

Holo|i7: and that it can be resumed?

Link`: Clannad_Man: you were blatantly violating copyright, which means there’s nothing to clarify

Link`: it’s a cut and dry deal here

flamingspinach: He explained that in his tweet

flamingspinach: btw his japanese is so bad that I wouldn’t be surprised if nobody understood that tweet

flamingspinach: if you’re referring to this one

Holo|i7: Actually he didn’t violate any copyright, because he didn’t make any money from it and he didn’t actually post any of the goods to the backers, lol

flamingspinach: “誠意のしるしとして、Kickstarterのプロジェクトを停止します。このプロジェクトは肯定的な意思だけの尽力で行うのを証明したいです

Holo|i7: he has broken no laws

flamingspinach: Holo|i7: you don’t have to make money from something in order to violate copyright

herkz: well he was planning to

herkz: which i’m pretty sure is still illegal

herkz: at the very least it’s against the rules of kickstarter

herkz: so

Clannad_Man: The rewards produced by Key should not have been on there. I realized that. They needed to be removed regardless.

herkz: all of them, really

herkz: anything you didn’t make

flamingspinach: you only realized that after vavasyatyou found your kickstarter?

flamingspinach: or did you realize that before and not say anything?

Clannad_Man: Kickstarter verified the items were OK. That seemed good enough.

flamingspinach: that doesn’t answer the question

Link`: Actually he didn’t violate any copyright, because he didn’t make any money from it and he didn’t actually post any of the goods to the backers, lol – a. it’s violating copyright because he doesn’t own the rights or a license to the material b. it’s against Kickstarter ToS and that’s uncontestable

herkz: kickstarter has been known to not check shit very closely until people start reporting it

Link`: Clannad_Man: wait wait wait you REALLY thought it was perfectly fine to offer unlicensed goods as rewards? really dude?

Link`: ignoring copyright violations, it’s extremely and utterly disrespectful to the creators

Link`: to do that without their permission

Link`:not to mention Madoka and K-On etc have nothing to do with Key or your documentary

Link`: see Holo|i7

Link`: this is what I’m talking about

flamingspinach: well actually you don’t typically need permission from the creator to sell physical artifacts

Link`: Clannad_Man doesn’t understand what he’s doing is wrong and someone like that should not be given $20k to do a documentary in Japan

ammm: Clannad_Man: I have a question. Supposedly this is a documentary about Key. Why weren’t you (or whoever else is involved) planning on having interviews, then? Seems pretty fundamental for me.

flamingspinach: ammm: it’s not, it’s a documentary about “places” featured in key works

DxS: because it’s not a documentary on key

DxS: it’s a documentary on places that inspired key

DxS: apparently

ammm: uhhuh

herkz: i hear japan inspired key

Link`: flamingspinach: you do when you’re using it in a project where money changes hands

herkz: better take a video of the entire country

Link`: even if it’s allegedly non-profit

flamingspinach: Link`: no, you don’t

Link`: which, well, is hard to gauge

Link`: for all we know Clannad_Man will spend $5k on going to Japan and pocket the rest

flamingspinach: the “copyright violation” if any is the fact that he uses key art on his kickstarter page

flamingspinach: not anything to do with the rewards

Link`: Kickstarter has ZERO accountability when it comes to its projects

flamingspinach: the problem with the rewards is that they violate kickstarter’s ToS

Link`: he doesn’t even have to deliver the documentary

Link`: or any rewards

ammm: Okay, different question. Why a doc about “places inspired by Key” and not a doc “about Key”?

flamingspinach: not that they violate Key’s copyright

flamingspinach: ammm: because that requires less actual work ;) but who cares why

shigland joined the chat room.

ammm: i care

flamingspinach: shigland: check it out Clannad_Man is in the channel

Link`: flamingspinach: either way it’s still incredibly disrespectful to the creators

flamingspinach: Link`: I agree, but that’s not illegal

Moogy: it’s also a scam because you can buy the shit he was selling for like 2 dollars on YAJ

Holo|i7: regarding the stuff that shouldn’t have been allowed on KS

flamingspinach: true

Link`: Moogy: if they’re not scanned from his artbooks/setting books

Holo|i7: it’s C_M’s fault for putting them there, but it’s equally KS’s fault for approving it

Link`: which we don’t know

Clannad_Man: amm: spinach is essentially correct in this instance. that would require interpreters and time commitments from Key staff which I assumed would be nearly impossible to get.

Link`: either way it’s a scam

Link`: in many respects

Clannad_Man: It is not. You say so.

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: if you’re really trying to demonstrate your goodwill, you should post to your kickstarter clarifying that you did not actually contact Baba

flamingspinach: because that is the truth, and you admit it

flamingspinach: what do you say?

ammm: But I mean. From a cinematography perspective, how do you make a worthwhile doc about the “places featured in Key games”, given that your target audience are otakus and not geography kicks.

herkz: ammm: you ask for way more money than you need and take random videos with a cheap camera and pocket the rest

Clannad_Man: I’m not a cinematographer, amm. That’s why 1-2 professional videographers were scheduled to be on the production team

flamingspinach: you’re dodging my questions again :)

herkz: why are you going? they should go and take all the videos

ammm: are those video people key fans?

herkz: they don’t need you to tell them how to do their jobs

Holo|i7: herkz: you don’t believe that C_M will hire a cameracrew then

herkz: no, he might

herkz: but i don’t see why he needs to be there

Clannad_Man: Actually no. One watches anime, the other hasn’t watched any

herkz: i’m honestly lost in what he adds to this entire thing

Link`: Clannad_Man: legitimate question: why did you say you’re selling original setting materials straight from the animators if you’re not doing that?

ammm: That seems… problematic, to say the least. Camera crews don’t handle the design of a documentary, that’s presumably going to be your work.

Link`: you’re outright lying there

Holo|i7: so you’re saying that C_M should hire the crew and just set them off on their merry way

Holo|i7: without him

Holo|i7: lol that’s an interesting thought

herkz: no, he should hire someone with experience to make a documentary

Clannad_Man: I said I would be offering OSM’s from my personal collection

herkz: someone who has actually released one

Link`: no, you didn’t

herkz: then it would be way more legit

ammm: it’ll have to be someone who’s both made a documentary and is a key fan

flamingspinach: you guys are all missing the point

flamingspinach: the point is that Clannad_Man’s kickstarter is misleading and should be made less so, and he has given no good reasons for why his kickstarter is so misleading

Link`: The specified original production materials were printed and used by the animators in the productions of said anime; in other words, they are not replica photocopies, but actually the ones used in studio. Some materials may have bends, wrinkles, or fading due to the amount of use received in production, though many appear crisp. Distribution of individual materials will be conducted at random, therefore no one will be able to choose a specific character, background, or object depicted.

Link`: it says right there that you’re offering it straight from the studio

Link`: which is false

herkz: flamingspinach: because if it was the truth, no one would donate

flamingspinach: if he fairly represents his plans on the kickstarter, and they are stupid plans and yet backers pay him money, that’s their loss

Clannad_Man: No, thats not what it says

flamingspinach: but the point is, he doesn’t fairly represent things on his kickstarter

flamingspinach: his plans, maybe

herkz: yeah, fs, they would just be stupid then

herkz: but right now, they’re getting scammed

Link`: Clannad_Man: dude, it says it right there

flamingspinach: but his background and updates, no

Link`: don’t say things that you don’t mean

Link`: it’s unethical

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man has misrepresented things that have already happened and are facts

herkz: i dont have a problem with people donating if the kickstarter wasn’t full of lies

flamingspinach: and you guys are trying to grill him on what he’s going to do in the future?

Link`: “Some materials may have bends, wrinkles, or fading due to the amount of use received in production, though many appear crisp.” especially implies that you’re taking them straight from the studio

Clannad_Man: What I said in that statement, Link, is completely true. You are the one choosing to interpret it differently

ammm: Clannad_Man: I pretty much agree with fs. You need to be more transparent about the product you’re offering and also how the money will be spent.

ammm: And also your former experience doing video projects.

Link`: Clannad_Man: you’re like a GOP politician

Link`: this is rich

Moogy: he also needs to stop lying about running translation projects he didn’t

Link`: you’re saying that I’m misinterpreting what you wrote

Link`: when it’s right there

herkz: but moogy, he would just be some random key fan then

Clannad_Man: yet, you still manage to do so

Clannad_Man: I am just a Key fan

Clannad_Man: why s that so hard to believe?

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: you’re still ignoring my questions.

herkz: i believe that

Link`: you’re dodging the question Clannad_Man

ammm: I’m just approaching this as a documentary kick. It’s not exactly simple to make a good documentary, and certainly not something you can do without former experience.

herkz: lots of people like key

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: if you’re really trying to demonstrate your goodwill, you should post to your kickstarter clarifying that you did not actually contact Baba

flamingspinach: because that is the truth, and you admit it

flamingspinach: what do you say?

herkz: most of them don’t lie about who they are to get money

flamingspinach: answer this

Tomo: excuse me, but am i allowed to say something?

Link`: what does ” Some materials may have bends, wrinkles, or fading due to the amount of use received in production, though many appear crisp.” imply Clannad_Man?

Link`: please answer the question

Moogy: man, this isn’t going anywhere, he’s just going to keep trucking on with his shit reading comprehension and giving evasive answers

herkz: can’t be helped

Moogy: whatever man

Kasuteru: i am totally not logging this

Clannad_Man: Well, it would be helpful if one question was asked at a time. It it easy to say that questions are being dodged with a page of posts a minute

Kasuteru: and showing this to the public

Kovensky: Tomo: why not

Tomo: okay, well

Link`: it’s not very hard to answer questions if you’re not lying to us

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: it’s easy to say that you can only answer one question at a time and then answer them out of order so that the ones you don’t want to answer are left unanswered

Link`: you should know exactly what to say

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: if you’re really trying to demonstrate your goodwill, you should post to your kickstarter clarifying that you did not actually contact Baba

flamingspinach: because that is the truth, and you admit it

flamingspinach: what do you say?

flamingspinach: please answer this first

Tomo: i am the guy who started the initial key 15th anniversary letter project

ammm: Well, he *is* being bombarded by an entire chat room of questions from folks angry at him. Doesn’t make for much of an organized interview.

jp302: he should do one of those things

DxS: i am the guy who started the initial key 15th anniversary letter project

DxS: and?

flamingspinach: that’s it, DxS

flamingspinach: he just wanted to declare that

Clannad_Man: I have no problem saying that Baba contacted me after questions were raised by you, the beliggerent members of the internet. Correct, Spinach

shigland: rofl

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: ok, then please do so

jp302: man, i forgot the websit

flamingspinach: on the kickstarter

Link`: Clannad_Man: what do you have to gain by lying?

Link`: just curious

jp302: that place where people submit questions and you answer them

DxS: what good does that do, fs…

jp302: (very descriptive)

shigland: ask fm?

Clannad_Man: You know, this might be more entertaining if this intire Q&A wasn’t such an obvious setup

flamingspinach: DxS: it makes his kickstarter less full of lies

shigland: or something

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: you think this cacophony is a setup? lol

jp302: yeah ask.fm

Kasuteru: uh

Clannad_Man: Oh, why would I think that?

Kasuteru: clannad

Hibari: Clannad_Man: what do you have to gain by lying? < I wonder…

Kasuteru: you came in here?

DxS: no, I meant this [flamingspinach] that's it, DxS

DxS: [flamingspinach] he just wanted to declare that

flamingspinach: oh lol

flamingspinach: I dunno

flamingspinach: ask him

Clannad_Man: Oh, Hi Kasu

Tomo: why do i want to declare that?

Link`: Clannad_Man: how is this a setup? you’re not answering any of our questions honestly

Clannad_Man: You started everything off

ammm: Seconding jp. I like drama too but we could do this in a more organized way.

DxS: then what was your point, Tomo

Tomo: because this is harming my project

flamingspinach: what is

wilfordx: what project

shigland: send spam to key project i guess

Tomo: key 15th anniversary letter project

wilfordx: lol

Tomo: http://www.key15th.com

DxS: wasn’t he involved with you though?

Holo|i7: Most people in this discussion have an agenda – they think it’s all a scam, and are out to screw the project up, lol. It’s hard to have a fair discussion when the people have already made up their minds (incorrectly) what the intention is

Tomo: sure, if you make it that way

herkz: Tomo maybe you should put something on your website then saying you don’t approve

jp302: Clannad_Man: http://ask.fm/Jonnyprieto i recommend you set up one of these

flamingspinach: jonnyprieto

jp302: also Kasuteru is not shigland (aka fuji_fruit)

Clannad_Man: I know who Kasu is

herkz: instead of having his video and shit right at the top of the front page

shigland: kasuuuuu

Clannad_Man: So, shigland

Kasuteru: kasu is an incredibly qt name

jp302: well all Kasu did did was write a blog entry so people could catch up with what happened

herkz: Holo|i7: sorry for going with the facts

jp302: and translate tweets

DxS: wasn’t he involved with you though? – to tomo, I mean

flamingspinach: 死ねカス >Kasuteru

jp302: so don’t say he “started everything off”

flamingspinach: oh, kastel wrote a blog entry?

flamingspinach: where’s kastel’s blog again

Moogy: yeah

Moogy: https://oppaiisjustice.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/clannad-man-x-vava-doujins/

Kasuteru: i had a blog?

Kasuteru: WOAH

Tomo: well, at some point i will be writing that the anthology and the documentary are planned separately but related

flamingspinach: o

ammm: that reminds me

flamingspinach: I always forget who writes what blogs

Tomo: but well, i am not sure if it really matters that much anymore

Holo|i7: herkz: there are facts and there are incorrect conclusions drawn from the said facts

Holo|i7: but I feel that there’s no point continuing this discussion, lol. people have made their minds up and nothing anyone says is gonna change that

herkz: it’s pretty obvious that he lied about leading those projects so people would think he’s more qualified to do this than anyone else

herkz: and thus got money

herkz: so uh

Moogy: i don’t even care if the project is a scam, really, it’s just that i was around back in 2006-2007 when velocity7 actually started translating clannad

herkz: unless i’m missing something here

Moogy: so it’s incredibly hilarious that some dude no one has heard of comes along in 2013

Moogy: and says he was responsible for it

ammm: clannad’s TL started in 2006?

ammm: that’s like, when WoW came out

Moogy: ammm, i think it was 2007 actually

Moogy: iirc he started it when the anime aired

Moogy: but baka-tsuki was founded in 2006 or something. idk it’s been a really long time

ammm: so ancient

Moogy: but i’ve been around since then, so eyah

Moogy: *yeah

flamingspinach: I have no problem saying that Baba contacted me after questions were raised by you, the beliggerent members of the internet. Correct, Spinach

flamingspinach: Clannad_Man: ok, then please do so on the kickstarter

flamingspinach: no answer

Then00bAvenger: Clannad actually had up to After Story ‘translated’ by the time the anime aired

Holo|i7: yeah you missed fireworks lol

Tomo: if you guys don’t mind me saying

herkz: but TNA

herkz: “He was responsible for leading the English Localization Projects for three Key visual novels (Clannad, Little Busters!, and Tomoyo After)”

herkz: he totally led the projects

Tomo: i think you guys are being dicks by pointing at Clannad_Man and saying he’s a dick

herkz: after they were released

Tomo: not to say that he didn’t bring this on himself

Good_Haro: Hey Mr. Clannad_Man, I have a pressing question for you: what is your opinion of Hadaka Shitsuji?

Clannad_Man left the chat room. (Quit: Getting the Science Done (o^-’)b)

flamingspinach: rofl

Holo|i7: Perhaps he was economical with the truth, but that doesn’t mean he had bad intentions, lol

Tomo: if you guys ask me

herkz: well holo, his refusal to fix it says much more

Holo|i7: you make it sound like he’s gonna do to japan and take a few pics with his cameraphone

flamingspinach: well holo, his refusal to fix it says much more

flamingspinach: ^

Good_Haro: yeah

Good_Haro: he sounds like a scammer

jp302: pretty sure if you run a kickstarter you shouldn’t violate kickstarter’s TOS

shigland: good_haru he googled hadaka and his mind was so blown he closed irc

Good_Haro: from the way he was dodging questions

flamingspinach: I’ve asked him like five times to make it more clear that he didn’t contact baba of his own accord

Good_Haro: heh

Tomo: yes, he made really terrible decisions

herkz: i mean this “He was responsible for leading the English Localization Projects for three Key visual novels (Clannad, Little Busters!, and Tomoyo After)” is factually incorrect

flamingspinach: and he has refused to answer my questions

Good_Haro: yeah

Good_Haro: he sounded like a shady PR man

flamingspinach: now, not that that particular thing is super important

herkz: because clannad and LB had releases before he ever joined

flamingspinach: but it shows how shady he is

Tomo: i was told only told there would be a documentary and a kickstarter for it, and never knew about it in detail

Tomo: but

herkz: not to mention the people who led those two projects are still around

herkz: and still leading them

jp302: unless he was arguing “Projects cannot resell items or offer rewards not produced by the project or its creator.” didn’t apply because it was his personal collection and i missed it

ammm: joining a channel full of people who want to tear me a new one and taking questions from them all at once is what i would do were i PRing for my kickstarter project

jp302: idk what Link` was getting at

Holo|i7: you know, I loled at his KS when i first saw it, but only because i thought 20k was a ridiculous goal

flamingspinach: Link` was just being dumb

Holo|i7: not because I thought he was getting a free trip to japan, or doing a runner with the money

flamingspinach: there’s a way to grill people correctly and a way to grill them ineffectually

Kovensky: never knew of any of this until baba happened

herkz: in fact, someone joined the LB channel and was mad that clannad_man was lying and saying he ran the project

Tomo: holo, i have to say, i found it ridiculous too, and it didn’t even seem like he was going to succeed

Tomo: seeing that he exhausted his higher priced tiers

Holo|i7: But let’s say that hypothetically he did intend to scam you guys

Holo|i7: certainly if I was him, I would probably run without about 10k

Good_Haro: well I think the biggest scam aspect really was in the rewards

Holo|i7: much easier goal to reach

Kovensky: it’s also not uncommon for kickstarters to get high value backers that suddenly disappear one or two days before the deadline

Good_Haro: obviously he was using big names like Madoka and shit to get money out of dumb people who don’t know better

Good_Haro: and to make the project more legitimate

ammm: i think you’d get into legal trouble if you just take the money and don’t give backer gifts

jp302: i don’t really want to call it a ‘scam’, i just think either his backers didn’t realize what they were getting and thought he was making a real key documentary, or were in it for the rewards

Good_Haro: looking like he has some kind of personal connection with the studios

ammm: what KS scammers mostly do is take the money and make a cheap product that sort of fills the requirements

flamingspinach: jp302: same

Good_Haro: idk I think he intentionally mislead people

Good_Haro: I think that qualifies?

jp302: yeah, you can’t deny that he lied about shit

herkz: how is lying to get more money not a scam

Tomo: i actually agree with most of what you guys are talking about, aside from the scam part

Good_Haro: and I think he was fully cognizant of the fact that he was lying

jp302: because the lies were tangential to the objective of the KS

Good_Haro: like this wasn’t some accidental oversight

Good_Haro: he was misrepresenting himself

Kovensky: anyway, assuming ignorance rather than malice, what makes this get weirder is the lack of communication

Good_Haro: and the project

ammm: i think he had good intentions and is just very incompetent

herkz: but the only reason people donated to him is because he lied about who he was

Good_Haro: I mean he does a few things

herkz: why would people donate to some random guy?

Good_Haro: first he misrepresents his importance in the community

shigland: clanad man was in high authority in japan so he doesn’t even need to contact key staff to get an interview with them

Holo|i7: he may have been economical with the truth, but the intention wasn’t to scam your money, it was simply getting money for his documentary. At the end of the day, his intentions were good

jp302 checks the dictionary

Holo|i7: that you can’t deny

Good_Haro: and then he uses those rewards to make it look like

Good_Haro: he’s related to the creators somehow

Kovensky: whether that’s good or not is besides the point

herkz: he wasn’t economical with the truth

herkz: he lied

herkz: wtf

Good_Haro: yeah

herkz: stop saying that

Good_Haro: also idk how you can argue his intentions were good

Good_Haro: what’s so good about a stupid documentary

shigland: he just wanted 20k ok

Tomo: my opinion is that, yeah, he may be doing a bad job at all that stuff, but he’s just trying to do something in good faith

Good_Haro: it’s not even a good idea for a documentary

flamingspinach: I’m still pissed off by this comment

flamingspinach: I’m glad that you got in touch with the company. Unless you have explicitly stated this is in no way related to the company, I was in no way being able to truly support this project. I know the cancellation will disappoint many, but I will let you know that you have won over my support with this move.

flamingspinach: he totally didn’t get in touch with the company

Good_Haro: yeah

ammm: good intentions==honestly wanting to make a product

flamingspinach: and he still hasn’t explicitly stated that this is in no way related to the company

jp302: “A scam or confidence trick is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence.” i guess you can argue that he created false ‘confidence’, but there’s no way to know if he intended fraud

Good_Haro: I don’t think he really wanted to make a doc

flamingspinach: and this poor backer is paying him money

Holo|i7: I’ve known him a bit longer than you have, I guess. That guy is crazy about Key.

Good_Haro: I think he wanted to go to japan

ammm: incompetent==having 0 idea how to go about it and doing a lot of dumb stuff

flamingspinach: that is not cool

Good_Haro: and I think the doc

Good_Haro: was an excuse

ammm: well, he could’ve wanted to do both

flamingspinach: Holo|i7 and Tomo I don’t know how you can defend the above

Holo|i7: Someone else doing it, I’d think they just want a holiday to japan

jp302: but yeah

Holo|i7: but with C_M, I do think his intention wasn’t to get a free trip to japan.

Tomo: i am not trying to defend that, because that is just sad

Good_Haro: idk

Holo|i7: I might be wrong, you might be wrong.

Shikiller: it doesn’t matter how much he loves Key, he shouldn’t take credit for another person’s work

Holo|i7: no one knows that, but C_M, I guess.

Good_Haro: lemme put it this way I think it’d be neat to blog about locations from Hadaka Shitsuji

Shikiller: fuck him

Good_Haro: but if I put up a KS like this

Good_Haro: it would definitely be more about a way to get a free trip to japan

shigland: Also, any information present in the project would probably already have been posted in japanese. 20k for images of backgrounds use is retarded.

Kovensky: Good_Haro: you really liked hadaka shitsuji, didn’t you

Good_Haro: even if I had genuinely intended to do the KS

Good_Haro: I did

Good_Haro: lol

flamingspinach: it doesn’t matter how much he loves Key, he shouldn’t take credit for another person’s work

flamingspinach: yes

Holo|i7: If it was for a free trip to Japan, he doesn’t need 20k

Holo|i7: 5k is more than enough

flamingspinach: Holo|i7: did you see the comment I pasted

Good_Haro: maybe he’s greedy

Holo|i7: yeah, he shouldn’t take credit, I agree

Tomo: basically

Good_Haro: and the fact that he doesn’t lay out costs

Good_Haro: is a bit suspect

flamingspinach: no I don’t mean shikiller’s comment

flamingspinach: I mean the comment from some backer >Holo|i7

Good_Haro: I can eat it for stuff like Trigger’s kickstarter because they’re a known quantity

Hibari: Holo|i7, people are greedy

Kovensky: ” I’m glad that you got in touch with the company. Unless you have explicitly stated this is in no way related to the company, I was in no way being able to truly support this project. I know the cancellation will disappoint many, but I will let you know that you have won over my support with this move.”

Good_Haro: but some random dude

flamingspinach: yeah that

Good_Haro: who’s never produced a documentary before?

herkz: well trigger has actually released stuff

flamingspinach: that comment

Good_Haro: yeah exactly

Hibari: that comment is autism³

ammm: this is a really big issue with his kickstarter btw

ammm: he’s never done a documentary before

Tomo: my opinion is that, yes, he misrepresented a lot of stuff without ever telling me anything, and has an ego that to this day i don’t understand how it is possible for someone to possess, but it’s kind of sad that you guys keep calling him out even though he had good intentions

shigland: What would his documentary even cover?

flamingspinach: good intentions don’t mean shit

flamingspinach: the result is that people are getting deceived

Tomo: in a way, beating a dead horse even, just because we all know what happened there

shigland: shit that’s already been posted millions of times?

Kovensky:the bigger problem is not what he did

Holo|i7: that comment from a backer is fair enough

Kovensky: it’s what he’s not doing

flamingspinach: Tomo: we do, but the backers don’t

flamingspinach: that’s the whole point

shigland: He’s not even going to contact the people who worked on the games

shigland: what kind of documentary is that

Tomo: i definitely had to say, though

flamingspinach: who cares what the documentary is really about, as long as he makes it clear on the kickstarter so people don’t pay money for something they’re not going to get

Tomo: i was kind of pissed off when he started it

Holo|i7: people keep saying he’ll make a shit documentary without knowing the type of person he is

Tomo: have*

flamingspinach: I don’t care if it’s a documentary about his bathtub, as long as he doesn’t lie on his KS page about it

shigland: lol

herkz: pretty much

Kovensky: is “leader of these translation projects” technically a lie btw?

herkz: people can waste their money on a shit documentary

herkz: as long as they aren’t lied to on the kickstarter page

herkz: Kovensky, yes

Raide: I was kind of overjoyed when I saw the KS page, since it’ll cause pain for KEYfags and hilarity for all

Shikiller: it is a lie, yes

flamingspinach: Kovensky: there are straight out lies and then there are deceptive and misleading phrasings

shigland: it’s a lie no matter how you look at it

Kovensky: yes, it’s misleading

Holo|i7: he was in charge of the doki VN dept at some point, so he was in charge of Tomoyo After

Tomo: i have to agree that he didn’t lead any of them

flamingspinach: he was a leader of something

Kovensky: but, in Doki’s translation project, is he the one leading it?

Holo|i7: but not really of Clannad and LB, because his successor is leading those

flamingspinach: but not of anything which actually produced a fan translation, apparently

flamingspinach: yeah

herkz: the leader of the clannad project is velocity7 and the leader of the LB project are the people in #fluffy (not to mention they’re listed on the tlwiki page)

shigland: clannad man is the secret leader

Kovensky: ic

Tomo: holo, if you ask me, i sometimes questioned why he didn’t do anything at all

Kovensky: it could be one of those *technical* truths if he happened to actually (at least in name) lead them back when he wrote the KS page

Holo|i7: he was economical with the truth

Holo|i7: he didn’t outright tell a lie

Raide: he’s like the equivalent of Idea Man in EVN development scene, those who throw around ideas and look for writers / artist

Good_Haro: no he pretty much lied

Raide: and then feeling like he did 90% of the work

herkz: funny part is, he’s not even involved with that anymore

Tomo: though i would be wrong if i don’t point out he did put a lot of momentum in the original key15th project

Good_Haro: that’s not like just leaving out things

Holo|i7: yeah, he’s not involved anymore

Holo|i7: that’s true

herkz: well the kickstarter is in present tense

herkz: so

Raide: organizer =! leader

Good_Haro: anyway it’s sad that your only defense is a dumb semantic argument

herkz: it should say he was formely the leader or something

Good_Haro: and a really weak one at that

Kovensky: lol

Kovensky: yeah, I was just wondering if there was at least a semantic argument for it

Kovensky: or if it was entirely wrong

herkz: the truth is he was the leader of the tomoyo after project (whatever that means)

herkz: the rest is completely wrong

Tomo: well, i was on the tomoyo after project

Kovensky: also, isn’t Doki well-known for not being good at translation :F

Good_Haro: herkz: the rest is completely wrong <– aka he lied

herkz: i dont think that matters

Holo|i7: propaganda that you hear

herkz: is it propaganda if it used to be true?

herkz: i think people just don't care to check anymore

Holo|i7: some of our stuff is bad, some is good

Holo|i7: not everything is good

Good_Haro: what does propaganda have to do with anything

herkz: nothing

Kovensky: Good_Haro: he's replying to my comment about Doki being bad

Holo|i7: yeah

Good_Haro: I still don't see how that constitutes propaganda

Good_Haro: but okay lol

Holo|i7: some TLs are good, some aren't so good

Kovensky: lol

Kovensky: I haven't seen anything Doki so I can't confirm anything

Holo|i7: well saying that everything we do is bad is untrue, therefore is propaganda, lol

Holo|i7: but that's beside the point

Link`: re: people who are saying it wasn't a scam and Clannad Man is just incompetent but well-intentioned, considering how much he lied, isn't the onus on him to prove he isn't a scammer in some way?

Kovensky: though as of late I've been trying to ignore subtitles <_<

Kovensky: (or only use it as vocab crutch)

Good_Haro: Holo|i7: well saying that everything we do is bad is untrue, therefore is propaganda, lol <– I think you need to look up what that word means

herkz: Link`: him fixing that stuff on the kickstarter page woukd prove he's not

Holo|i7: Link`: I think final verdict should be reserved til we see his letter to baba

herkz: yet he hasn't changed anything

Kovensky: herkz: well, he suspended the KS

herkz: the page is still there

herkz: unaltered

herkz: so

Kovensky:oic

Holo|i7: give the dude some time, lol

herkz: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibhmc/key15th-a-visual-documentary

herkz: it would take about 2 minutes to fix it

herkz: by my estimation

Holo|i7: it's not like he's off to the bank to withdraw the 10k and jetting off to the bahamas

Good_Haro: probably less even!

herkz: change the stuff about him being the leader

herkz: delete all the rewards

herkz: done

Link`: Holo|i7: it's like saying "well I guess this dude who stole my friend's car is a fine chap because no one's proven without reasonable doubt that he didn't steal it"

Tomo: i haven't ever done anything on kickstarter, so i wouldn't know, but can you actually change something that's supposed to represent a pitch after you made that pitch?

Link`: Clannad Man should be the one proving to us that he's legit

Link`: not vice versa

Good_Haro: also he totally had good intentions in stealing that car if he did steal it and I'm not saying he did

flamingspinach: Tomo: absolutely

Link`: Tomo: yes

Tomo: okay

Holo|i7: Actually he should be proving to his backers that he's legit

shigland: lol G_H

Kovensky: Tomo: I think the only thing you can't change is your funding goal

herkz: how do you know we're not potential backers

Good_Haro: well we're part of the community that could theoretically be potential backers

Tomo: wait, so you can change rewards too?

herkz: yes

Good_Haro: sorta

shigland: And anyone who says he did steal it is spewing propaganda

Tomo: because i would be pissed if i pledge for something then it got swapped with something else

Good_Haro: you can't change reward tiers that people have already pledged on

Repiphany:You can't delete rewards if people have pledged to them

shigland: lol

ammm: i only pledge for music projects on KS

Holo|i7: I'd have to seriously question your common sense if you gave money to a KS which you blatantly think is a scam

ammm: /hip

Good_Haro: but technically nothing you promise on KS is like

Good_Haro: legally enforcable

herkz: how would they know it's a scam

Good_Haro: from what I understand

herkz: why do you think we're making such a big deal out of it

Holo|i7: [herkz] how do you know we’re not potential backers

shigland: herkz is the #1 key fan if you didn’t know

herkz: never know, some of us might donate to a key documentary

Holo|i7: definitely not to this one though

herkz: we can’t force him to fix his page, but if he doesn’t i’m pretty sure his shitty reputation will keep following him for a long time